Newcomers VANITAS have already have had a successful trio of single releases and are understandably gaining more recognition of their signature sound. Around the release of their single Secrets, Rock Out Stand Out’s Lotty Whittingham spoke to lead vocalist Jade Maris and guitarist Mitchell Barlow about this single, their sound, neurodiversity and who they would take on a quest. Let’s find out what happened.
Hello, thanks for joining today. Where did the name Vanitas come from?
Mitchell: I’m a nerd.
Jade: Well, we’re all nerds.
Mitchell: Yes and there is this Final Fantasy spin off series called Kingdom Hearts; which is like Final Fantasy meets Disney. So in that series, there are alternate versions of the characters that exist. The main character has an alternative version of himself and they are called Vanitas. I’m a big fan of Kingdom Hearts and I thought ‘that’s a cool name, I want to throw a reference in there’.
It was the demo name for our song Vanitas and then everyone liked the demo name so that was going to be the name of the song. We were then struggling to think of a band name and we thought ‘why not call ourselves Vanitas?’
Jade: So that’s why we are a young band with a self titled song. With no context, it looks like the most pretentious thing in existence because the song was called Vanitas first and we named the band Vanitas afterwards. It sounded cool.
Mitchell: Then everyone decided on a self titled EP. So it was Vanitas by Vanitas off the EP Vanitas [laughs]. I’ve always found that sort of stuff funny.
For those who haven’t heard Vanitas before, how would you describe your sound?
Jade: Our little tagline we use is Cine-Djent which means Cinematic Djent but a longer version of that would be modern metal djenty riffs with orchestra inspired from JRPG, anime and film soundtracks. So you have your modern metal but mixed with the orchestras of big, epic soundtracks.
Mitchell: For any nerds, Nobuo Uematsu modern metalcore. I’ll go really nerdy and name drop the Final Fantasy composer [laughs]. Matt [Jones] from Dakesis helps us with our backing tracks a lot and I always tell him to make it sound like Final Fantasy.
You’ve released the song Secrets which is amazing. It says in the press notes the song is about family betrayals, could you explain a bit more?
Jade: I can talk about that. The lyrics are very personal to me and it was a challenge for myself because I have this habit encasing my lyrics in a million metaphors and descriptors to make it secret and that no-one can figure out what I am on about. I like my poetic metaphors, they’re not going anywhere but I need to get better at being open and more vulnerable so that’s what I am working on with the theme of the lyrics of the singles we’ve released.
So Secrets is actually about some past family trauma that I have experienced and it’s about knowing someone is lying; particularly knowing that this family member is lying about something and seeing them tell that lie to everyone else when I know the truth. It’s hard to know the truth when they have all these secrets. That was the idea behind the chorus.
Thank you for sharing this. With this song, was it a song you had written a while ago and you have revamped it or is it completely recent? I ask this as I know musicians to revamp previously written songs before.
Jade: In terms of vocally, it’s a new song because the topic I am singing about isn’t a new thing, it’s happened in my life but it’s something where the emotions where brought by back up and I felt the need to write about it. So the events of the song aren’t recent but the actual writing of the song; I think I wrote it around June 2023.
Mitchell: For me, I have a habit where one part was written yesterday and then one part will be something I wrote seven years ago. Intro riff was written at the start of 2023, the verse riff written the year before that and the rest of it was written all in the same week. I’ve a bad habit of either taking forever or being really quick and throwing in old ideas that I didn’t find a home for before. The pre-chorous was written before the vocals were recorded.
Jade: The pre-chorus wasn’t supposed to be there but we felt like it needed something extra. I actually wrote the scream part for that pre-chorous whilst tracking the vocals. I am delving more into my screaming vocals, I want to push those even further.
Mitchell: I suppose to throw in a bit of random information, this applies to the last three singles. Eventum was originally a seven minute song that I scrunched down. Between Lune And Eden was a twelve minute song that scrunched down and Secrets was probably six minutes that I scrunched down.
Jade: Don’t get me wrong, we are a prog band and we like our long songs but we’re also a new, young band that’s trying to get somewhere. Unfortunately there seems to be a limit to the amount of ten minute songs we can do at the moment.
Mitchell: At some point, I will write a fifty minute song and say to the rest of the band ‘hey, we’re doing a three track EP now’ just from this one song [laughs]
Jade: That will probably happen eventually. [laughs]
It could be when you play Power Metal Quest Fest and have a similar moment where Dakesis ended their set with their fifteen minute song. I think prog and power metal tend to interlink with one another.
Mitchell: Yes, I generally tend to find that some of the best musicians are power metal musicians. They’re literally trying to write the best songs possible because as much I love prog, there is a lot pretentiousness where they do a five minute instrumental section just because they can play it. Whereas with power metal musicians, they can easily play that but choose not to as they want to write a song that will go down well with a crowd. I can’t help but respect that.
Jade: I think we sit in a nice middle point where we have some fans that lean more towards the more trad, prog and power metal side of things but then we also break more into the modern metal, djent kind of crowds too. So we try and to find the balance between the two in our song writing as well.
Mitchell: Between Lune And Eden is definitely more a power, prog song but Secrets is very modern and djent. I get bored of the same sound.
Jade: I also think it wouldn’t be a Vanitas song if it didn’t have a bit of both and I think the combination of those is what creates our stamp on things.
Mitchell: Despite writing modern metal, I don’t listen to too much modern metal. I’m a huge melodic death, power and black metal fan mostly. I listen to a lot of modern metal as well but a lot of it draws influences from those worlds a bit.
When listening to your music, I did notice a huge mixed bag of influences. In some ways, that’s good as it helps you figure out what works. I can imagine trying to put your stamp on the world is a bit difficult as a musician.
Mitchell: Oh yes. There are moments where I fancy writing something inspired by In Flames or I fancy something that sounds like Periphery. There are moments where I want to write something that Beast In Black would write. I can’t help myself; I don’t want to feel like I have pigeonholed myself or anything.
Jade can attest to this; if you ask me my top three bands, Queen would be in those top three. The amount I sneakily put Queen references in; like when I am writing a guitar and I wonder how I can make it sound like something Brian May would do.
Jade: The Ghostly Coast solo is very Brian May.
Mitchell: It’s me trying to say ‘this is me but I also really like Brian May’. I can get really nerdy in the ways I try to be like him [laughs]. Going back to the random thing, I am a huge fan of the weird sections Queen would do and recently I am trying to get a flamenco section into a song. [laughs]
Jade: Every new song we write is him saying ‘we could put a flamenco section in here’ and I tell him that whilst I like that idea, it wouldn’t work for this particular song.
Is there plans for a debut album in the future or will it be another EP?
Jade: No plans for debut album yet but that is a goal we would like to eventually hit. Honestly it’s more of a ‘we’re young and broke’ situation but once it becomes something that is more sustainable, we’ll definitely start having those discussions. As for another EP, that’s definitely in the pipeline.
Mitchell: This isn’t a set in stone thing but it’s something I would personally like to do; I want to keep releasing EPs until we have a reason to delve into doing a full length album. When we do, personally I would like to do a concept album; our version Metropolis Pt. 2: Scenes From A Memory from Dream Theatre or in an ideal world, getting Jade to some Ayreon level stuff but without the seventeen vocalists. I love nothing more than album that makes you feel you got to listen to the entire album. It’s definitely a dream of mine.
Jade: When you’re a young band like ourselves, it’s more financially viable to stick with singles until you have that consistent fan base. For us, we’re still in the stage of trying to reach new people and build that community. We’re trying to achieve that by always having a new thing and being consistent. Whereas once we have that community established, it makes more sense to drop an album.
At Rock Out Stand Out, mental health is hugely important. What’s awareness like in your local area? That can include awareness around Neurodiversity, as a fellow neurodivergent myself.
Jade: I think everyone in Vanitas is neurodivergent in some capacity of varying levels. There’s a lot of autism diagnosis’s within the band, there’s some undiagnosed too. There is definitely stuff going on. I don’t know if you can relate to this but neurodivergents tend to gravitate towards each other.
I have found this to be very true yes.
Jade: We’re in a somewhat privileged position in the sense that we have really lovely friends around as they are open about their mental health and they are neurodivergent friendly. So I think what I find is when I step out of my support network of friendship group, it’s almost more of a shock because I am used to being in a supportive environment. Then you find out how general society tends to operates, it’s very different.
In our local, honestly; I don’t tend to leave the house other than for work, to see my friends or band stuff but it is shocking. I think especially being in the music industry; I see myself as this goofy little person doing my thing but I always forget how shocking it is to be a woman in metal. I don’t think it should be a shock but you definitely treated like a rare uniform and not always in a good way. It’s either this weird fetishization or it’s this sexist approach, so no matter what end of the spectrum it is, it’s not comfortable.
I’m lucky that whilst I have had some bad experiences in that, lots of people are lovely, friendly and care about the music. The vast majority of the metal community are really lovely and really accepting; unfortunately like with everything, there are some bad eggs.
Mitchell: I’m autistic and I don’t think there is a lot of autistic representation in metal.
Jade: I think there is a lot of autistic individuals in metal but they aren’t as open about it.
Mitchell: I have a lot of problems personally in staying in places that I don’t know, I very much need my comfort things and I have always felt that dooms me as a musician a tiny bit. I know I can work around it but it makes me feel like I can’t think of anyone who’s gone through this.
To name drop someone who recently became open about it but Andy Cizek from Monuments, I was listening to a podcast called The Downbeat hosted by Craig Reynolds and he just mentioned he was autistic and there was a half hour segment about how it effects him on tour and how he handles it. I almost happy cried in response to that, I thought ‘is this representation of someone in scene that knows how I feel’ and Monuments are massive. This guy has the same challenges I do and he gets through it, it was a mad relief to know that I wasn’t alone.
Jade: I think that’s one thing we aim to do. Yes we love making our silly little djent tunes but ultimately beyond that, we have seen first hand the impact of having that representation and how much it’s positively impacted our lives. We love to provide even a little grain of that for other people to say ‘hey look we’re here, we’re queer, neurodivergent and gender diverse’ and that can be normal in metal. You can be metal and cool and a big nerd. That’s a big message behind what we do.
From your personal experience, how would describe your neurodivergent brain? Mine personally is like an internet browser with multiple tabs open at once.
Jade: For me, I’m not officially diagnosed with anything yet so sometimes I feel the imposter syndrome kicks in because I haven’t got that piece of paper. Obviously, it’s underdiagnosed in women; especially since women are good at masking and self managing. I definitely have traits of ASD and ADHD, I don’t know which it is but I’m rolling into what works for me and one thing I find a lot I am either under stimulated or overstimulated and it can vary. One minute I could be chilling in bed and really relaxed, then Mitchell will be typing at his keyboard and that will be enough to get me in a bad mood for half an hour. Other times, if I am not constantly singing; I get bored. It’s zero to one hundred back and forth.
So how that translates into music is that there are many different tabs open like you said and a never ending to-do list. I like doing things in a specific order and if it doesn’t happen in that way I think, I get stressed. I have had a lot situations in my life where I have had to deal with uncertainties so I feel I have good coping strategies for that. It normally doesn’t present itself to the average person as I am externally good at coping with it, internally my brain is thinking ‘I was supposed to eat at 12:05 and now it’s 12:20’
Mitchell: Following on from Jade a little bit, very similar energy on a lot of things. If I was to try and summarise it, it’s like having three books open; one book is about music, the other is about stuff like Sonic, Final Fantasy and things like that then the other book is work stuff. All three books are open at the same time and they are on random pages, I’m darting between each page at different speeds then all of a sudden, I’m flicking through one book then start slowly reading another. My brain is everywhere and nowhere at the same time.
To add to that, sometimes I touch a sponge and my brain goes into overdrive when I feel that texture of the scour bit on your bones and on your teeth. Then suddenly that texture is your existence now.
Jade: I think a lot of the time our sensory issues are opposite to each other which is good as we can help each other out. I’m very much fast brained, talk a lot and very extroverted whereas Mitchell can be uncomfortable in social situations. I can provide that social help whereas Mitchell can help realise what needs my focus. Speaking for the rest of the band, I think working as a band together has helped us unmask a little bit and feel more comfortable. I hope Jackson won’t mind me saying this but our drummer Jackson isn’t necessarily diagnosed as neurodivergent or open about it but since he joined the band, we sure like talking about dinosaurs and Transformers a lot. I feel like our band has provided that safe space to have these conversations freely.
Mitchell: There are so many things I can info-dump, I’ve got jokingly bullied for info-dumping on a manga called Beserk for example or an anime called Neon Genesis Evangelion because these are my hyper fixations. I can’t help myself. We have a t-shirt inspired by this and we call it the 90s Mecha Anime shirt.
Jade: One of my hyper fixations is the show Aggretsuko about a little red panda who is a corporate business worker by day but then sings death metal. I can relate fully being a teacher during the day and do death metal vocals by night.
For those who aren’t neurodivergent or haven’t had that experience with someone who is, what would you like them to know and understand?
Mitchell: I shut down, it happens. When that happens, please give me space and don’t overwhelm me when I am having my space. Don’t take the I Need Space as a call for help and the need to baby me. I just need to sit in a spot that’s calm and controlled where I can do something that is comforting.
For example; when I am heavily overwhelmed, I have a Spotify Playlist that’s purely full of music that brings me back to nostalgic times. A lot of the Kingdom Hearts soundtrack is on there. I just need to go somewhere where I need to be left alone with noise cancelling headphones where I can listen to that for a few minutes. I need to reset, neurodivergent need that ability to press reset.
Whilst I am a social person, the noise around can feel like it’s three thousand times louder than it actually is and I need to relax for a few moments. Ear protection is great for that.
Jade: I agree with what most of Mitchell said. I hate that a neurodivergent’s interest is often perceived as childish or not even childish, you might like collecting things or building things, but then people assume you’re unintelligent, naïve or incapable. I am very capable but I just like squishy frog pillows. I can co-exist with both of those; I can be a silly, goofy gal and be a bad ass bitch. I can be both of those things. I don’t like this assumption that you’re one or the other; either head in the clouds, naïve child that collects Lego or a robotic, intelligent, sit at a desk and get a million things done. You can be both and also because we’re human.
It doesn’t help when media representation shows neurodivergent individuals to be one or the other.
Mitchell: Autism in general for me is really weirdly represented. I really like my nerdy games, there is a sci-fi series called Mass Effect and we’re talking thirteen years ago, it’s a fair amount of time but in terms of inclusivity and representation, it’s not that long ago. Mass Effect 2 had a gigantic super overlord which was a super computer and the protagonist’s mission is to destroy it and it turns out that the computer was the brain of his heavily autistic brother. They have re-released this game since but that game would have helped form their perception of autism.
There was a moment on The Good Doctor where a character was having an autistic meltdown and I felt it didn’t feel accurate, it felt one dimensional. There’s a perception of autism where you’re either quiet and unsociable or you’re hyper intelligent and rude. Everyone used to diagnose Sherlock as autistic due to his hyper intelligence.
Jade: I guess it’s the hyper fixation on young white nerdy boys and that’s the poster child for autism and other neurodivergencies. When that’s not the case, autistic women exist and there are individuals who social and extroverted who also have autism. It’s a spectrum.
Mitchell: In some cases, the representation goes to far to the point where the character’s main trait is being autistic. They have no other traits, there might be an arc about them being autistic but then they become a side character that maybe says a funny thing every now and then.
I was diagnosed with autism when I was three. I was a child of the nineties and grew up in the noughties. I was told growing up ‘watch your body language’, ‘keep eye contact’ and other things but I wasn’t told that was OK to take five minutes if I felt overwhelmed by it all. I was told taking time out was rude.
Mitchell: It’s not rude, that person needs to know that I need to take five minutes occasionally. It’s a general public perception thing that’s enforced by media representation. It’s an education thing I think. There’s a lot of things society needs better awareness of to be fair but it’s only going to get better if you call it out.
You’re into your video games and nerdy things like me, which five people would you take on a quest with you?
Jade: First one instantly, Jack Black. I love that man, one of my hyperfixations when I was eleven or twelve was Jack Black, not in a crush way but in a I wanted to be him way. I had a similar haircut, I could quote the entire Tenacious D Movie and sing all the songs. I would try to get my friends to role play different Tenacious D songs with me which is cringe but also hilarious. If you listen closely, there are some Jack Black-isms in my singing. I first started learning to sing during that Jack Black phase. I am legitimately inspired by him and Kung Fu Panda is a comfort thing for me.
He would be the bard.
Jade: Absolutely he will.
Mitchell: For me, it’s a combination of people I like hanging out and people I find useful. Fictional wise; the Master Chief from Halo as he is a cool sci-fi, super action hero and gets stuff done. Freddie Mercury, you got to bring the sass; don’t know if you heard the story when he met Sid Vicious. Sid Vicious walked in on them recording and said something along the lines of bringing ballet to the masses, Freddie Mercury grabbed him and pushed calling him Simon Ferocious. Okabe “Okarin” Rintaro from Steins;Gate just because he’s nerdy and practical, let’s bring along Gandalf. Fifth one, just because why not and we’ve brough him up a lot, Sonic The Hedgehog.
Jade: So for me Jack Black, mine’s also going to be a mixed bag. I think Link from The Legend Of Zelda as I am on Zelda hype at the moment and he can fight, has magic ability. So Jack Black, Link, my next choice would be Horse from the show Centaurworld. We need survival skill now, Frankie from Frankie and Grace as she would have so much wisdom and keep things calm. My last one, let’s go with Tom Nook from Animal Crossing as he can do the boring admin stuff.
Do you have a message for Vanitas fans and our readers?
Jade: For Vanitas fans, thank you for all your support and you are amazing. I cannot wait to share more stuff with you. For your readers or those who haven’t come across us; hello, hope you enjoyed reading about our nerdy interests and music stuff. If you stick around, we have more to come. Also, don’t be afraid to be yourself.
Mitchell: I’ll add on that if you’re autistic, just embrace it. Find people that appreciate you for your hyperfixations and your need to info-dump.
Thank you for speaking with Rock Out Stand Out and best of luck with future releases.
